cayetano ([info]gatodesnudo) wrote,
@ 2005-06-09 12:51:00
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Current mood: apathetic

controversy? what controversy?
a lot of folks have been asking me lately what i think of this whole Penny Arcade thing, but frankly i've tried to keep my blog and my life unsullied of the egotistical ramblings of a couple of video game addicts crying "sour grapes" over some phantom exclusionary cogniscenti leaving them out or not picking them for the team.

of course that shit hurt my feelings. anyone in my position (or john barber's position) would feel the same. no one likes getting slammed by a bunch of ppl that don't know them but want to speculate what they're about or who they really are. especially taking the easy way out by pointing out my love of the herb to make their point. really showing the world your incomparable wit there, fellas, way to go!

i've been able to comfort myself with the fact that i've never had to draw comic strips about star wars, video games or anything else that wasn't a product of my own imagination to gain an audience. or, for that matter, slam other ppl in comic strips to gain an audience.

still, the controversy over the upcoming film ADVENTURES INTO DIGITAL COMICS has raged on for days now.

i think scott mccloud's recent rebuttal pretty much sums it up for me and will give anyone that's not familiar with this latest flamefest a bit of much needed explanation/background.

what a couple of culeros... why not focus that energy on making more comic strips instead of calling bullshit on ppl. or playing some more video games to get out some of that misdirected aggression.

still, it's been entertaining and they've given a guy who's not made a comic in months some free publicity. i guess i should be thanking them...


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[info]himynameisjamie
2005-06-09 06:44 pm UTC (link)
i think they are acting like a group of ladies (sewing circle jerk) in a small neighborhood. this whole thing is such a joke. you played your side well and i commend your statments and how you have handled the whole thing. i just read up about this yesterday and can't even understand how it got to be anything close to as blown up as it is.

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[info]gatodesnudo
2005-06-09 11:36 pm UTC (link)
me neither. crazy, huh?

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[info]superjoe
2005-06-09 06:45 pm UTC (link)
Maybe people will be all "What? There was internet drama behind this movie?" and go out to see it in droves. Come on. Who doesn't like INTERNET DRAMA?!
I'm just sad that I learned about this second hand, from somebody else, and I honestly didn't think anybody in the world would notice it but apparently people did.

But really I'm just sad because I'll never be important enough to get insulted at Penny Arcade. That hurts me inside, honest.

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[info]gatodesnudo
2005-06-09 11:35 pm UTC (link)
i wouldn't bet on that just yet. you never know what could happen!

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[info]superjoe
2005-06-09 11:58 pm UTC (link)
Thanks man. You always know how to cheer a fellow up when he is down.

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[info]dedos
2005-06-09 07:27 pm UTC (link)
At first, I was wondering if you were gonna respond, but then you didn't, so I just figured it wasn't a big enough deal to get under your skin. I mean, the PA guys manage to piss off SOMEONE once a week, right? And LJ has enough drama in it, already. :)

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[info]gatodesnudo
2005-06-09 11:34 pm UTC (link)
eep! but i still wound up taking the bait. couldn't help it. it gnawed at me for days, wondering if i WAS the pretentious asshole they made me out to be, completely talking out of my ass. funny, i never saw myself that way. it's hard to be coherent when you're under the lights and in front of the camera. like charlie in the chocolate factory i was just happy to be there. honored even. too bad they turned down the same opportunity. the world at large will NEVER recognize thier genius now!

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[info]pfarley
2005-06-09 08:23 pm UTC (link)
You're the textbook definition of a mensch, Cat.

(And pity those fools if they end up alone with me in an elavator at San Diego!)

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[info]gatodesnudo
2005-06-09 11:32 pm UTC (link)
but, see, they'll be NICE to you in san diego. just not over the internet! ;)

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[info]danhernandez
2005-06-09 09:16 pm UTC (link)
personally I have alot of critiscms to aim not just a the PA guys but webconics in general. I still think theres a lot of confusion that webcartoonists have to work out on how we discuss webcomics in relation to one another.

This whole thing reminds of the great comicon flame war a few years back it seems alot of the same issues have yet to be worked out. That said, you seem to get brought up alot whenever there is a flamewar about webcomics

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[info]gatodesnudo
2005-06-09 11:31 pm UTC (link)
yeah, i know. probably paying back some of the bad karma from being so outspoken and random over the last nine years...

plus, i think i'm an easy target for those that want to call me an elitist.

funny, when i was in austin i tried to get on keenspot at one point. sometime around when themestream died out for me and i needed somewhere to post the strips other than magicinkwell.com

ditto giant panda.

i never cut the muster, though.

so who's excluding who????

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[info]yirmumah
2005-06-09 10:15 pm UTC (link)
This whole thing is probably one of the best FREE advertising things ever for that documentary.

:)

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[info]gatodesnudo
2005-06-09 11:36 pm UTC (link)
hee! ;)

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[info]wilypueo
2005-06-10 01:25 am UTC (link)
Exactly what I was thinking.

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[info]toonhound
2005-06-09 11:56 pm UTC (link)
Hey Cat!

I can tell you honestly that the PA guys were never concerned with being in that documentary. That's being blown way out of proportion. Scott's wrong on his assessment that this is all over them feeling excluded and I told him that on the phone yesterday.

This is all about them disagreeing with the points made in that trailer. I'm sorry that the whole thing was tainted by the caricatures.

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[info]gatodesnudo
2005-06-10 04:41 am UTC (link)
now it's on comixpedia. please, god, burn out my eyes!!!

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[info]gatodesnudo
2005-06-12 07:45 am UTC (link)
i like today's sunday. a lot! :)

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Not Convinced
(Anonymous)
2005-06-10 12:04 am UTC (link)
Im not entirely sure what was so offensive about the PA comic...

They gave their opinion against High Art and Pretentiousness in their normal (and very humourous) manner and shouldn't be taken as anything grossly offensive.

Personally hearing people talk about Revolutions and such tires me after a while but then thats just MY opinion :P

nehoo, you sound like a nice enough person and im sure PA didnt mean for much more than a bit of controversy and light hearted "digging" :)

good luck in all your future endeavors,

Tomu.

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Re: Not Convinced
[info]gatodesnudo
2005-06-10 04:42 am UTC (link)
thanks.

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(Anonymous)
2005-06-10 12:59 am UTC (link)
I think you should get revenge, Cat. I think you should get revenge by creating more of the best fabulous artistically righteous comics the web has ever seen!! We miss you! --Joe Zabel

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[info]gatodesnudo
2005-06-10 04:44 am UTC (link)
thanks, joe!

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[info]2ce
2005-06-10 01:50 am UTC (link)
Aaaaaand we have a reply over at PA, as an addendum to Wednesday's newspost.

What it makes clear is that this IS a case of Jerry* lashing out in frustration and anger (as opposed to just looking for a target), but that Scott got it wrong about this being about inclusion in the film or equal representation of viewpoints. Jerry just hates Scott's viewpoint absolutely. Scott's advocacy of for-pay internet content is really infuriating to Jerry, because he is completely convinced that SMC is leading cartoonists down the wrong path and causing genuine financial harm to real people. This, naturally, elevates the whole situation to levels of acrimony and anger that a plain old difference of opinions just can't match. (Even to Internet People like Jerry and Mike.) So I honestly don't know if reason is going to be able to resolve this, even though it's all about some tensions that desperately need to be aired and shaken out. What's really frustrating is that I like the people (and works) involved on either side, and I'm actually kind of sympathetic with J&M - I think they're wrong and are being completely shitheaded about the way they're conducting the argument**, but I can at least understand why they're being intractable about the core issues here. It's pretty important shit.

Anyway, I am completely impressed with how chill you're being about this. You're a good man and a credit to your professions.
____
* With Mike behind him, natch, but this is clearly Tycho's chip that's being carried on the collective shoulder.

** That potshot at you was pretty fucking bogus, and I was completely unimpressed with their non-apology. And yet, they're unreservedly friends with some of my friends, whose judgement of character I generally trust. So what the hell? Were you just collateral damage in their beef with SMC? Did they drink a bit too much of the drugwar kool-aid?

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[info]dedos
2005-06-10 01:02 pm UTC (link)
** "potshot" -- heehee! :D

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[info]2ce
2005-06-10 02:36 pm UTC (link)
Aigh! Owned, by my own inadvertant pun.

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[info]blue_dynasty
2005-06-10 02:53 am UTC (link)
I just want to say, that I love your name. Cat Garza, such an awesome name.

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[info]frodoelf
2005-06-10 03:14 am UTC (link)
With a comic like Penny Arcade, it's almost their job to be controversial. Honestly, it's stuff like that that gives them hits. I don't think it was so much that they were sore that the movie didn't feature them; they don't need that. They have tons of attention from other areas, including a huge convention they are doing yearly now that brings in thousands of people. They make their money making fun of video games. For a living. For American Currency (tm). I wouldn't take much of what they say to heart. Sure it might hurt at first that they do a silly portrait of you, and maybe make fun of you being fond of weed, but come on. They are two guys who draw a comic about video games who style themselves after an astronomer and an archangel for chrissakes.

You do good work. You know you do good work. Just leave it at that and let them do what they want. I know Jerry personally and I can tell you he is one of the nicest, smartest guys you will ever meet. They are just posting this because they are expected to.

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It doesnt matter!
(Anonymous)
2005-06-10 06:06 am UTC (link)
Umm. I know you were pretty distraught by this whole thing. Ive done a little reasearch. Read the opinions. And I can, like the Rock, say, "It doesnt Matter!"

I'm actualy dissapointed with some of the flaming that has gone on in you defense. After reading the orginal penny arcade post I had a hard time beliving anyone, except perhaps some of there fans, took it seriously. Arent they know for being assholes, should one expect anything less?

It kinda reminds me of of when we went to that party at Comicon and there were all these people shmoozing, brown-nosing, and generaly trying to seem cool, and me and Alex stood back from it all, being that we are not in any form entreched in the scene, (I mean, I like sequential art, and I am fond of the infinate canvas idea, but then again I also think Ambigrams are the best thing since sliced bread.) but we dont "keep up!" and really have nothing to gain or prove. Watching all this happen I had an insight that day. No matter how big, small, or inconsequential a scene is people are the same, and "It doesnt matter!" Do what we love. Fuck what they think. "Build it and they will come," well with a little help of clever marketing techniques. Am I rambling yet?

-zach

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Re: It doesnt matter!
[info]gatodesnudo
2005-06-10 06:13 am UTC (link)
naked

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[info]viewtiful_sam
2005-06-10 08:52 am UTC (link)
I'll preface my two cents on all this with the fact that I am not really a part of the webcomic community except, I suppose, as a usually anonymous reader, and I don't give a fuck about either business model or any particular faction or faction leader.

Being so uninvested in the conflict, I hope I can give a perspective that isn't colored with previously wounded pride or defensiveness or righteouss indignation over some struggle with someone. Different comics have different points. Some may try to push the borders or art, some may simply have a story they want told, some may be to make a buck, some may want to change the world. The point of Penny Arcade though is satire. Every single week they make fun of someone for something; sometimes they make fun of things they hate and sometimes they make fun of things they like, usually they don't really give a rats ass on the subject. That's what a comedian does; he finds the absurdity in daily life and inflates it for the public enjoyment.

And all idealists are absurd. You have to be absurd to even have a chance of accomplishing anything but the mundane in your life. Gabe and Tycho are as absurd as you, Cat, and they've made fun of themselves in the past the same way they made fun of you. They see absurdity and pounce on it like any good satirist would. It was your turn today. Tomorrow it'll be someone else's. It isn't personal, it means nothing, and in short, it is not that serious. Before you responded to it all, I figured that you knew all that. Hell, I figured everyone knew all that. People need to stop taking themselves so damned seriously.

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(Anonymous)
2005-06-10 04:30 pm UTC (link)
I think viewtiful_sam has it right. The Penny Arcade comic is satire. Like most good satire (The Onion, for example), it uses an aggressive, take-no-prisoners style of humor to express a real opinion, an opinion that is usually driven home by Tycho's accompanying blog/rant.

They are successful not only because they write about videogames -- I've read them for years, and I could care less about most videogames. But they are also successful because 1) the style of humor is usually funny, 2) the comic is well-drawn, and 3) their opinions on any given subject are usually well-written and insightful. Even if you're not always interested in the subject, it's still a fun and suprisingly brainy read.

On this particular subject (webcomic business models), I think their opinion is a valid one and should be taken as such, even if their method for conveying the opinion steps on a few toes.

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[info]goobla
2005-06-11 08:03 am UTC (link)
Jerry and Mike are satirists in much the same way usenet trolls are satirists.

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[info]mmsophia
2005-06-10 01:09 pm UTC (link)
This too will pass, Cat. This'll blow over and be forgotten, but the documentary will be remembered.
Don't sweat it.

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[info]scrubbo
2005-06-10 03:23 pm UTC (link)
I love that you are using the PA comic as your new icon. Seriously.

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(Anonymous)
2005-06-10 04:06 pm UTC (link)
Dude, just freaking laugh at yourself and get over it. That's what Penny Arcade does, it takes silly situations and makes fun of the participants, just like Leno's monologue or Jon Stewart's entire show. Feel honored that you're a big enough part of the situation to warrant being the punchline of a joke, haugh a laugh, enjoy the free publicity, and stop acting like you just got a wedgie in gym class.

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(Anonymous)
2005-06-10 04:22 pm UTC (link)
*have a laugh

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(Anonymous)
2005-06-10 06:04 pm UTC (link)
"...egotistical ramblings of a couple of video game addicts crying "sour grapes" over some phantom exclusionary cogniscenti leaving them out or not picking them for the team... no one likes getting slammed by a bunch of ppl that don't know them but want to speculate what they're about or who they really are."

" phantom exclusionary cogniscenti leaving them out or not picking them for the team... i've been able to comfort myself with the fact that i've never had to draw comic strips about star wars, video games or anything else that wasn't a product of my own imagination to gain an audience."

"what a couple of culeros... why not focus that energy on making more comic strips instead of calling bullshit on ppl... still, it's been entertaining and they've given a guy who's not made a comic in months some free publicity."

Intentional irony, or the unintentional kind?

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Really confused
(Anonymous)
2005-06-10 10:06 pm UTC (link)
Ok, so I'm really confused here...

Using the PA art as your avatar... that's cool. It's showing that you can take a joke, and its not like everyone can have a charicature of themselves drawn by Michael Krahulik. So that I get, and its the sort of mature response that's always nice to see in these situations... but then you go and chew the guys out completely in your post, and make all kinds of unfounded character accusations about them... isn't just that biting the hand that feeds?

So then there's the whole "phantom exclusory cogniscenti" thing... now please do correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this whole thing spawned from comments you made on that documentary about how art forms were being closed off to artists? Effectively doing exactly what you now accuse Jeremy and Michael of?

You suggest that Jeremy and Michael should write more comics, but admit that its been some time since you've created any yourself...

You cite the rebuttal by Scott McCloud even though Scott has since admitted that he had no idea what he was on about when he wrote that...

I mean just so people know where I stand, I think Tycho screwed up pretty bad on this one... the comic was just usual PA stuff, but between that and a few other initial comments he did push things beyond reasonable bounds. I certainly don't buy their "the picture is on the website" line. They still went out of their way to take the piss... but then I come over here and find myself struggling to see the supposed moral high ground amid a quagmire of confused reasoning. Care to make things a little clearer?

---Peter---
www.thewarp.tk

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Re: Really confused
[info]gatodesnudo
2005-06-10 10:15 pm UTC (link)
lashing out in anger, not thinking it through, external pressures trying to figure out how to make a living and feeling a bit slighted of one thing i thought i could be proud of, anguish over whether or not i want to continue making art and trying to support myself with it, deadlines, business stuff, music stuff...

take your pick. i'm as much to blame and a fuckup as anyone. i'd take it down now or change it, but i'd be dishonest about real feelings i'd had at the time i wrote it (see the following post after this one)

i'm sure they're good guys. i'm not crying in a corner nor am i stewing about it. i'm more concerned with following my own advice at this point.

there IS no supposed moral high ground in this whole debacle, sorry if there was any misconception that its geography somehow put it anywhere remotely to the state i'm in.

using the drawing as an avatar, well, you said it yourself. it's as much an honor as it is a slap in the face. i can admit that.

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Re: Really confused
(Anonymous)
2005-06-11 09:44 am UTC (link)
Ok, that's fair, and I can see where you're coming from. Also it was probably somewhat harsh of me to criticise you for lashing out when I'm not the one who got insulted, so I take that back.
I think the bigger problem here has been the legions of people who rolled out to defend your supposed position before you'd ever said anything about it yourself, just because they had a grudge against PA. I really respect the fact that you're not trying to take up arms with them.

---Peter---
www.thewarp.tk

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Success
(Anonymous)
2005-06-11 08:36 am UTC (link)
"i've been able to comfort myself with the fact that i've never had to draw comic strips about star wars, video games or anything else that wasn't a product of my own imagination to gain an audience."

I'm not trying to be harsh but... they actually have a pretty big audience. Maybe you should consider trying it yourself.

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Re: Success
[info]carsonfire
2005-06-11 01:59 pm UTC (link)
If you're a fan of PA and similar comics, it may seem like a delightful idea if all webcomics simply abandoned all that tragic sh*t that you may find tedious, but you're actually advocating Garfieldization. That is, at any given time, the only really wildly popular syndicated comic strip is Garfield; therefore, all syndicate comic strips should be Garfield.

I respect the success and business acumen of cartoonists like Scott Kurtz et al, but lately it seems that they are insisting that their way is *the* way, and any suggestions otherwise, as has been recently posted at Comixpedia, is "lying to cartoonists".

It's as if Stephen King was telling the rest of the world of literature that they are fools for not following more closely his path to success, and then going on angry rampages when losers like Gore Vidal, John Updike, and Joyce Carol Oates don't follow his advice. There is no doubt that King is a talented writer who gained enormous success through a popular genre (just as Tycho and Gabe are talented webcartoonists who gained enormous success through a popular genre); but it's nonsense to suggest that his model is the only one.

There are many paths to success; the creators of Penny Arcade of course represent the *best* way in webcomics, but it would be *actually* tragic if it became accepted as the only way. Especially since it's the internet that has opened up more possibilities for diverse comics to discover paths to success, in the face of newspaper/syndicate stagnation. Why would we want to so quickly abandon these freedoms in favor of homogenization? As hard as some of us are working to make money from our comics, it's not all about money.

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Re: Success
(Anonymous)
2005-06-11 04:40 pm UTC (link)
The problem is that the issue isn't over content, but delivery. PA have never suggested that gaming comics are the only kind of comics that should be out there, or that everyone should use the same letterbox format as them or anything of that sort. Jeremy has personally stated that what he takes issue with is Scott McCloud feeding cartoonists crap about the internet being the future of moneymaking in cartoons. If you actually look at PA and PVP both of them produce seriously large amounts of merchandise and print comics (in the case of PA, the various pieces they have produced on commission for Ubisoft). What they're selling isn't any form of digital content, its stuff that you can actually hold in your hands.

Stephen King suggesting that everyone should write novels like him would be stupid. I'm a novelist myself, as yet unpublished, and I have no intention of copying Stephen King's style. On the other hand I have every intention of seeking out a publishing deal and getting my books into the shops like he does, and if someone walks and starts telling me that the real future is to put my books online and let people read them for $0.25 a chapter, I'm going to be thinking real hard about whether they are actually sane before throwing away my chances of success and financial security on their pie in the sky ideals.

PA aren't telling everyone to copy their comic, but they are telling people to take a look at how they do business, because they've sure as hell proven that it can work.

---Peter---

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Re: Success
[info]carsonfire
2005-06-11 05:55 pm UTC (link)
Content isn't the entire issue, but it's part of the issue. The previous anonymous poster suggested that Cat would be more successful if he *did* do comics about Star Wars and video games. It was the anonymous poster who made *that* suggestion, not PA.

There's more than one path to success. At the moment, I don't see Scott McCloud bullying people into accepting his viewpoint. Scott McCloud, as far as I know, has never said "those losers with their subscription models and Keenspot-like networks are LYING to cartoonists!" I do see some popular gaming cartoonists aggressively criticizing others for having their own opinions.

The PA business model does indeed work, but Tycho and Gabe have not created a *sure* path to success, any more than Stephen King has. A cartoonist could follow the PA model to the letter, but may still not find success if his webcomic is about Napoleon's childhood instead of ripping into familiar cultural topics. If it were as easy as just doing it one way, why aren't there more Stephen Kings?

But, for the moment, let's forget content. Stephen King has made a whopping fortune from selling movie rights. Are writers only considered successful if they have a dozen movies based on their books? It's desirable, of course, but most writers have to settle for more moderate success in order to write what they want to write about, and what is more natural for them to write about. Some woman with a book on the Cuban experience who wins a major book award and a grant, for instance, is a success in moderate terms, even though she will never have Stephen King's popularity and success. Unfortunately, the childishness of the internet would spur many to give that woman a horselaugh for being so lame compared to Stephen King.

The struggle for many of us isn't about clawing our way to the top, but finding more moderate success with comics that don't have a plurality of readers. It's no surprise that the very successful are very successful; there has to be a thriving midrange. And there will be different paths to get there.

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Re: Success
(Anonymous)
2005-06-13 01:43 pm UTC (link)
Just an addendum to that, Peter.

Stephen King released one of his most recent books on the Internet, I believe. Not sure if it was $0.25 a chapter, but it would have been pretty close.

Just throwing that in there.

Lensei

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Re: Success
[info]gatodesnudo
2005-06-14 03:32 am UTC (link)
huh. i wonder how it did for him.

i just finished BLACK HOUSE and i'm currently going through ON WRITING on audiobookcd. interestin' stuff.

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indeed
(Anonymous)
2005-06-14 05:36 pm UTC (link)
if i were you i would indeed thank tycho, if not for him i certainly would have never made my way to this site. personally im still a huge PA supporter but i must say that the music you post here intrigues me quite a bit.

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Re: indeed
[info]gatodesnudo
2005-06-21 07:02 am UTC (link)
thanks :)

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